Skeptic Project

Your #1 COINTELPRO cognitive infiltration source.

Page By Category

Forum - Occupy Wall Street, your opinions?

Tags: OWS, Occupy Wall Street [ Add Tags ]

[ Return to Economics and Business | Reply to Topic ]
Kaiser FalknerPosted: Oct 03, 2011 - 13:41
(1)
 

HAIL HYDRA

Level: 6
CS Original
So, with attention beginning to actually pick up around the rise in Occupy Wall Street protests in the United States, the question is where you all fall.

For full disclosure, I have already written about this topic on my personal blog and I will say that I am full support of the protests as meaningfully carving out spaces for democratic discourse, but I lament its amorphous position as it stands today. I think to argue that lobbyists and financial interests don't exert undue influence over the political system is to want to throw certain realities in the trash bin. This cannot be taken as a statement that totalizes the financial sector as wrong or inherently bad. I believe corporations and financial institutions are inherently amoral and thus cannot be expected to behave within social mores without explicit regulation. Thus, the protests represent a full turn away from the kinds of hyperfinancialization that occurred throughout the 1980's and 1990's.

I am also not a great admirer of street protests because I feel that they are too often loaned not to careful and intelligent thought, but rather to crowd mentalities and banal rebellion for its own sake. But in this instance, I see an existing and hibernating intellectual articulation on the problems at hand that must come to the fore. I draw these views from ethnographic work carried out by Karen Ho in her book "Liquidated" for example. She uncovers some serious contradictions and issues at the heart of the financial center's engine room.

So, my hope is that these protests will transform into a meaningful, popular dialogue in the near future. I cannot say whether or not these protests will specifically bring about any change, but I do believe they can contribute to actually discussing many of the failed practices that have beset the country and its financial structures for several decades now.

an excerpt from my blog

What I find problematic, however, is the following. There seems to really be more of an amorphous shape to these protests rather than the kinds of directed and well focused protests this country has seen in the past. This is perhaps evidenced by the Occupy movements lack of central demands that appear actionable. I am not saying that what they want is not just- I believe that it largely is- but that what they are after is really unclear pragmatically. I will borrow a quote from The New York Times contributor Gina Bellefante as quoted on Wikipedia, "The group's lack of cohesion and its apparent wish to pantomime progressivism rather than practice it knowledgably is unsettling in the face of the challenges so many of its generation face -- finding work, repaying student loans, figuring out ways to finish college when money has run out." I agree with Bellefante's point here. The movement may capture the general ideals of a great many of us who have grown up in an America market by run-away corporations, but that does not mean our ideals are well articulated; yet. When writers look "behind the scorn" they most certainly do see precisely what it is that is bothering the protestors, but they cannot translate this into an articulated grievance- only a laundry list of complaints.

There is something to be said, however, for the fact that the amorphous demands that these protestors hold have actually converted in to action. While I agree with Bellefante at this point and time I also hold out hope that action itself may lead to an articulation of demands. And I also hold out hope that the protests themselves will become the trigger by which more people come to identify their grievances with the ways in which finance and governance intersect in this country in a very baffling way.

....

At this juncture I do not know if this movement will actually begin a substantive shift in the way the financial, political, and civic spheres interact, though I do hope there will be some lasting effects beyond the protests. These protests have the potential to represent a serious moment for this generation growing up in the world after 9-11 and on the downward slope engendered by decades of reckless faith in a system of markets geared towards wealth disparity. While I support the protestors and feel that they are embodying something very important, I do not think it has taken a meaningful shape yet. I hope that a voice will be found soon, and that a peaceful but powerful change will come.


Thoughts?
#1 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
The Real RoxettePosted: Oct 03, 2011 - 14:20
(0)
 

There ARE more sluts in public schools. Shut up and let me explain.

Level: 8
CS Original
As an anarcho-syndicalist, anti-capitalist, etc I not only didn't know they were still doing this, I find it sad and laughable. What do they think they are, Greeks? It's weird though, earlier on CNN International I saw a few rich people in the US talking about the protests, which was pretty ironic.

My response isn't as suave and coherent as yours, Herr Kaiser, but really overall, I find them ineffective and I imagine within a month no one except IndyNews will remember it.
#2 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
The Burger KingPosted: Oct 03, 2011 - 16:35
(0)
 

I can't stop posting pictures of poop, what the fuck is wrong with me?

Level: 5
CS Original
I think the message their putting on is a bit incoherent but the original message they were putting out was very simple, which was they had a problem with how finances are being done in America. In my opinion I think what they are inadvertently asking for is for a crash to happen, at that I couldn't agree more with. As far as any real change happening because of these protests, I'm highly skeptical about that mainly because through out history as far as I know no revolution has caused any real change until after something bad like a collapse happened. After the collapse you usually see a revolution take place but not during or before a collapse.

Just from a historical perspective as I said above I doubt it will go anywhere, but I do support them in a way as a collapse hopefully a fast collapse occurs so we can start recovering/seeing are problems. America also needs to reexamine how it conducts it's finances and to an extent we don't need to add more policy's and rules in wall street. We need more people possibly departments involved with hopefully people who have a real good understanding and background in physics and math, who are able to see these problems and stop these problems ten steps ahead of even the best smart guy on wall street but even then we'll eventually have new problems.

In general I think this is a worthy protest. I would assume politicians know this is happening put on another level the protest will not influence their decisions but if a politician is watching these protests they will sympathize with these people a bit like anyone else would. In a way it kind of reminded me of the teabaggers protest except teabaggers were only covered by fox news, were pretty much the opposite as far as views with occupy wall street, and their protest only lasted one day(can't remember maybe a few days); As occupy wall street is not covered by mainstream media, is a 180 compared to teabaggers, and is lasting for a few weeks now.

On another note, I know some of the people within occupy wall street and I had predicted that Alex Jones was going to say that occupy wall street protesters are NWO or something among that nature. Two days later Alex Jones did say that the people financing occupy wall street are in short NWO and are bad people. Alex Jones also said that teabaggers and Paultards are in occupy wall street but my friends over there are saying if that's true then their are a lot of sandal wearing, bongo drum beating teabagger/paultards out here. In general they pretty much don't like Alex Jones, teabaggers, paul tards, and zeitards. I've talked to a number of the supporters who identify themselves as democrats that support Obama in a lot of ways except for a few things be it jobs, war, bailouts or something else.

Global Banking Cartel Hijack 'Occupy Wall Street' 1/5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaydJiba1qY

live video stream of occupy wall street
http://www.livestream.com/globalrevolution
#3 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
The Burger KingPosted: Oct 04, 2011 - 04:41
(0)
 

I can't stop posting pictures of poop, what the fuck is wrong with me?

Level: 5
CS Original
Amazing infowars finds out that most of who are at occupy wall street are Democrats who support Obama . I don't think it's a secret...

Obama Machine Prepares To Hijack 'Occupy Wall Street'
http://www.infowars.com/obama-machine-prepares-to-hijack-occupy-wall-street/
#4 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
The Real RoxettePosted: Oct 04, 2011 - 12:15
(0)
 

There ARE more sluts in public schools. Shut up and let me explain.

Level: 8
CS Original
What the hell do they care? They hate Wall Street anyway. The point is obviously being a contrarian.
#5 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
CyborgJesusPosted: Oct 04, 2011 - 12:59
(1)
 

Level: 6
CS Original
Thoughts?


Sure, but first: Good topic, and great starting post.

First, I sympathize with the protesters, but I don't think they understand what they're really fighting for. Some might've read Taibbi or the better stuff by Moore (it's not much, and I'm not a fan) and grasped what "Wall Street" is, but most probably don't and just follow the meme "Banks are stealing money from us".

Still, I think it's a good thing that the left is trying to spread their memes - as the far-right has perfected this strategy by now and it seems to be working out, looking at the Tea-Party boom after the first few astroturf campaigns.

Now to the bad part:

So, my hope is that these protests will transform into a meaningful, popular dialogue in the near future. I cannot say whether or not these protests will specifically bring about any change, but I do believe they can contribute to actually discussing many of the failed practices that have beset the country and its financial structures for several decades now.


I'd like to, but I don't see that happening. You'd need a concentrated effort coming from the left in describing the current problems and a possible solution - and such things usually need money and leadership, both of which have been lacking, or even considered evil, by the left (consider Zeitards' obsession w/ being leaderless). I'm not even opposed to using the rather blatantly populist "We're 99%" as the big idea behind this campaign, as there is a big gap between what the majority wants and what actually happens in the political realm. One could easily use the Internet to spread information on the distribution of wealth (and that it's more unequal than both liberals and conservatives would want it to be), on the voting system and why it favors a two-party state, on collusion of government and corporations, on financial coercion and so on - but someone would have to do it, and do it in a professional and attractive way.

That's what I think might work, but it's unlikely to happen. People will fight over nonsense like 9/11 truth or who really controls Wall Street, and any real information will either be distributed unprofessionally or too boring to be consumed at all. What remains are vague and unspecific messages that are against something and for nothing and that will be easily reframed by the media as pointless idealism coming from the youth, and, to be honest, that might not even be putting it wrong.

When I see a small boy screaming at a vending machine that took his money without spitting out candy, he might have a real grievance (and my sympathy), but his actions are still futile in the end, unless somebody with a real plan comes along and manages to fix the problem. And that's how I feel about "Occupy Wall Street" in a nutshell.
#6 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Agent MattPosted: Oct 04, 2011 - 15:32
(3)
 

Genuine American Monster

Level: 70
CS Original
Left wing teabaggers and they can kiss my ass.
#7 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Kaiser FalknerPosted: Oct 04, 2011 - 16:08
(0)
 

HAIL HYDRA

Level: 6
CS Original
Quote from Agent Matt

Left wing teabaggers and they can kiss my ass.


So you're not concerned with whether or not their actions are relevant or productive, but rather you think that what they see as a problem is neither actionable nor valid in and of itself? Essentially, you would say their grievances have no objective merit.
#8 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Agent MattPosted: Oct 04, 2011 - 16:29
(0)
 

Genuine American Monster

Level: 70
CS Original
Nope, their grievances have no merit because there are no concrete grievances. Its a mish-mash of populist bullshit, just like the teabaggers.

It is not my responsibility to decipher their goals and grievances. It is their responsibility to express them in a way I can understand. They do not do so, therefore I do not believe there are any goals or grievances worth my time to consider.
#9 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Kaiser FalknerPosted: Oct 04, 2011 - 16:38
(0)
 

HAIL HYDRA

Level: 6
CS Original
interesting take in so far as it negates any option for the possibility that concepts and notions emerge not from pre-articulated positions but only from articulated positions synthesized. I mean, I disagree with that on the basis of historical surveys of the effects of "populist" movements that are based on a set of general, accurate principles. Tea Baggers think Obama is a Hitler-Stalin love child. Occupy Wall Streeters think theres a wealth disparity engendered by a complicated system that doesn't have proper regulation and exerts undue influence. I dont think those two deserve equivalence. I obviously agree that they are inarticulate, but I don't think that means there's nothing of value in slightly more subtle forms.
#10 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Agent MattPosted: Oct 04, 2011 - 17:03
(0)
 

Genuine American Monster

Level: 70
CS Original
I think you're digging for meaning because you're emotionally invested in the idea that what they're doing is worthwhile in some way.

You've assigned a coherent message to the Occupy Wall Streeters just like right wingers assign coherent messages to the Tea Party. In reality, these messages only exist in your mind because it is what you want to see.

You focus on the hits (coherent signs, coherent speakers) and downplay the misses (incoherent signs, incoherent speakers) even though there seem to be more of the latter than of the former.
#11 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
The Burger KingPosted: Oct 04, 2011 - 17:23
(0)
 

I can't stop posting pictures of poop, what the fuck is wrong with me?

Level: 5
CS Original
I'm in agreement with Matt in that they seem to far left for me. I'm not sure that they really need a specific message, I suppose the message could be that everybody has many many different grievances. Unlike party platforms for political parties, protests groups don't have to adhere to the same standards at the start but I think they will eventually have for many reasons.

@The Real Roxette it's because Alex Jones and infowars people are republican, teabagger, paul tard supporters.
#12 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Kaiser FalknerPosted: Oct 04, 2011 - 18:37
(0)
 

HAIL HYDRA

Level: 6
CS Original
I actually don't think I'm doing anything at all. I find populist movements fascinating, and I absolutely acknowledge that they have a great degree of incoherence. I have stated this in my post here and on my blog. I just disagree with your ambivalence because I think it actually ignores the social phenomenon that is latent in the protests. Again, I have fully accepted the outcome being nil of these protests, but to suggest that there isn't something interesting is narrow minded, in my view. I actually don't think the Tea Party is a "non-event" i just dont agree with it as a movement. I do agree with several facets of the OWS protests (issues of corporate personage principally as well as a lack of legal limits and restrictions on lobbying), and perhaps it represents semantic slippage on my point to refer to it as a movement in any way shape or form. The crux of your statement seems to be in suggesting I am "invested" and that there is nothing beyond an ethos and no logos. That's actually a central concern I raised twice in regards to this.
#13 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Agent MattPosted: Oct 04, 2011 - 18:56
(0)
 

Genuine American Monster

Level: 70
CS Original
Cool story, bro.
#14 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Omni-SciencePosted: Oct 04, 2011 - 21:26
(0)
 

Ordo Ab Chao.

Level: 8
CS Original
Incoherence and diamonds in the rough are lost to a generation growing up on catchy jingles.
#15 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Evil ElvisPosted: Oct 06, 2011 - 04:31
(0)
 

STFU!

Level: 1
CS Original
Why is it that every time someone protests about capitalism, banks and in general people with jobs - it is always a bunch of sandal wearing tree hugging assholes. Come on people, you cannot operate without beer and pot and you deem yourselves fit to change the world? Go away.
#16 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
The Burger KingPosted: Oct 06, 2011 - 05:03
(0)
 

I can't stop posting pictures of poop, what the fuck is wrong with me?

Level: 5
CS Original
^ Occupy Wall Street is now supported by the the fart smelling Movement!


Occupy Wall Street - Where Everyone Has A Voice - Even The Fart Smelling Guy - October 3rd - Day 17
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cH4KqV8I2VA
#17 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Evil ElvisPosted: Oct 13, 2011 - 05:02
(-3)
 

STFU!

Level: 1
CS Original
http://the53.tumblr.com/

haha, you go folks, let the sandal wearing morons what you think ;)
#18 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
KeppPosted: Oct 13, 2011 - 06:42
(1)
 

Level: 5
CS Original
Quote from Evil Elvis

http://the53.tumblr.com/

haha, you go folks, let the sandal wearing morons what you think ;)


While I'm not a supporter of OWS, that picture is stupid. Looks like something Bachmann would post to promote her "47% of Americans don't pay anything" nonsense.
#19 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
CyborgJesusPosted: Oct 13, 2011 - 07:54
(2)
 

Level: 6
CS Original
That 53% stuff is the most servile garbage I've seen in a long time.
#20 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
KeppPosted: Oct 13, 2011 - 15:25
(0)
 

Level: 5
CS Original
EDIT: never mind it seems to change images on its own.
#21 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Agent MattPosted: Oct 13, 2011 - 16:02
(1)
 

Genuine American Monster

Level: 70
CS Original
Quote from Evil Elvis

http://the53.tumblr.com/

haha, you go folks, let the sandal wearing morons what you think ;)



I swear sandals. Fuck you.

Also Motorhead sucks.
#22 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
The Burger KingPosted: Oct 13, 2011 - 19:21
(1)
 

I can't stop posting pictures of poop, what the fuck is wrong with me?

Level: 5
CS Original
I'm not sure what 53% is all about unless those people are indicating they have more money than a normal person. I have to say when looking at the people who posted the 53% material most of them were fat and they didn't really look like they were rich at all which suggest to me their teabaggers. Matter in fact most of those people look like they would be poster children for Obama care.


Quote from Evil Elvis

http://the53.tumblr.com/

haha, you go folks, let the sandal wearing morons what you think ;)
I wear sandals as well and I also own bongo drums.
#23 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
CyborgJesusPosted: Oct 13, 2011 - 19:36
(4)
 

Level: 6
CS Original
53% is just a rehash of the popular right-wing meme "Never mind unfair political privileges for rich minorities, everyone can be successful if they just try hard enough".

That's obviously a straw-man argument, nobody's suggesting people give up and just roll up in fetal position until the government fixes everything, but if you want everybody to be responsible, then make everyone be fucking responsible, including those guys who've made a science out of avoiding taxes.
#24 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
KeppPosted: Oct 13, 2011 - 19:50
(3)
 

Level: 5
CS Original
That's exactly what it is, a right-wing meme.

Yeah the other 47% are just lazy fucks mooching off the system. Just exactly who the fuck is supposed to be working the minimum/low wage jobs. Let me guess the illegals who you assholes don't want here?
#25 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
The Burger KingPosted: Oct 13, 2011 - 20:55
(0)
 

I can't stop posting pictures of poop, what the fuck is wrong with me?

Level: 5
CS Original
Those people are fat, they don't look like they worked a hard day in their life. I saw a few of those people were in the military and as I respect people in or had served the military, I'd say a good chunk of them are motarded.

I don't think most of those people on that website are a accurate representation of the 53% just based on the way they look.

Yeah the other 47% are just lazy fucks mooching off the system. Just exactly who the fuck is supposed to be working the minimum/low wage jobs. Let me guess the illegals who you assholes don't want here?
I would agree with that, most of those people on that site that claim to be the 53% look like they should be placed in the 47%.
#26 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
Vasper85Posted: Oct 14, 2011 - 19:03
(0)
 

Level: 1
CS Original
Kaiser raises a good point that others are beginning to see as well. Does OWS have a list of demands? Any successful protest has a list of demands of things they want changes and if they are really good they will outline how to make the changes. Occupy Vancouver is taking place tomorrow and some of the people that frequent the political background in Vancouver have commented the very same thing, there is no coherent list of demands. They had a list of speakers (who many or may not have had demands) but then last minute said that the final decision of who gets to speak is not made by the speakers subcommittee but some other body. I'm going down anyway to see what I can see and maybe video some of the highlights.
#27 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]
JimJesusPosted: Oct 15, 2011 - 15:21
(0)
 

Bacon Pancakes! Making Bacon Pancakes, take some Bacon and I'll put it in a Pancake! Bacon Pancakes that's what it's gonna make...Bacon Pancaaaaaake!! ♪

Level: 3

p. much sums it up.
#28 [ Top | Reply to Topic ]