Skeptic Project

Don't really care that much one way or the other.

^LOL!

I really don't know how an RBE could function outside of barter, which is extremely inefficient at best.

I was inspired to create this thread when I read a link NWO Florist posted to TZM's forums and read what I could before wanting to hang myself. Of course, saw some of the usual money/capitalism is evil stuff so I posted this thread.

I guess maybe I should narrow the focus.

What do you think needs to be changed in the monetary, capitalist system so it works better for more people?

^Truth

Okay, so what do you think needs to be changed in the current world economic system so it works better for more people? I used capitalist as it seems the dominant economic model, with some controls.

On the side...what is the medium of exchange in an RBE? Barter or something else?

They are the Borg, after all.

@ Wolf Bird

Welcome to the internet.

I think you SHOULD scour the internet, with a skeptical eye.
It trains your skills.

Also, look back at all the previous threads and there'll be various meaty chunks.

Like VTV and Fresco's histories.

A basic understanding of epistemology is all it really requires to think critically. It's not difficult to differentiate between what's fringe and not fringe. Obviously, the idea of 10 foot Satanic iguanas ruling the world and poisoning our water is stupid. Just apply that notion to most things and you're fine.

Also, hanging out around here helps, but if Matt, Omni, or domo gives you shit, just understand that it's tough love.

Hey, that's my topic. It's Sunday, and one last post won't hurt, so here we go:

"TZM" philosophy is basically an oversimplified version of 70's-80's neomarxism. The idea is (or was) that class conflict, combined with a broad use of technology will get us to a point, where eliminating all work regarding money and sales (banking, accounting, marketing, etc) and reducing unwanted product redundancy and breakdown to a bare minimum will allow us to do the remaining work in 1-2h per day per person (I think "Dead man working" has numbers on this) - standard of living would stay at upper middle class level. The state would be diminished more and more, until the political sphere would be functional anarchy, as in the spanish civil war.

The problem with this idea - and yes, this is TZM without AI governments and high-modernist architecture, is that it a) has no form of "insurance" whatsoever. It might work, or it might break down, both have happened in the past, and b) it requires a tremendous political awareness among the population, which no communist/anarchist movement in the world has yet achieved, and TZM has merely succeeded to collect the "low hanging fruit" of the world.

But even the former supporters of this idea seem to have given up on it, as the book of Altvater, a German political writer explains how he sees no chance for a "world revolution", and no chance for one state changing its economic system surviving in a capitalist* world. I'll say he's right on both points.

This is pretty much as far as you get with "practical" communism at this point, and TZM is even less convincing than that.

My own view is a bit different, I don't see any problem with money, as money is just a tool to limit personal access to goods.

I do however see problems with the privatization of industry*, as the priority of any company is to make profits for its shareholders, not to find the most efficient and satisfying solution for all.

If I own a medical company, I'd rather have the patient come every month to get an expensive treatment to live with his illness, than have him come one time only for a cure.
If I own an electronics store, I'd rather have the customer buy the most expensive product, which breaks down fairly often, than a cheap one which is sufficient for him.
And whatever business I own, I want more customers.

These three categories, get people to buy more, buy more often, or buy more expensive products, are basically the core of modern marketing.

The whole economic system is based to get people to produce more and to buy more, which at our state of progress, doesn't really make much sense to me.

If a civilization is far enough advanced for its production to have a significant impact on its environment and the amount of usable resources it controls, I don't think that profit is an adequate motivator to build an economy on.

If you'd put all the power that we spend on coming up with more products and getting people to buy them into the sciences, into infrastructure and back to those who need them most, I think after a few centuries, we'd be the ones aliens claim to see flying in UFOs, not the other way around.

Naturally, I doubt that anyone will come up with a feasible alternative by himself, developing alternative economic models will require lots of time (and thus funding), and that's one of the things I'll most likely be working on at some point in the future.

*I use "capitalism" with the only definition that makes any sense, any economic system in which resources and the means of production are owned individually. When I mean the theoretical "free-market capitalism", I'll say so.

It will come with time grasshopper, I used to buy into all kinds of conspiracy stuff when I was younger.

It's easy to be a critical thinker, approach things with skepticism and use some common sense. You don't need these bunch of trolls for that.

I never really believed in any of the various CTs, though I have gotten depressed a couple of times out of fear they might be true. That's one reason I want to strengthen the critical thinking skills...so I can challenge that when it starts to happen. And also be able to challenge it should I encounter a CTer in the real world.

I think this bunch of trolls will be very helpful. :)

Yeah, I had read a few threads about your roommate while I was still just lurking. I commend you for putting up with that on a daily basis. And I find it ironic that he lives on taxpayer dollars.

I don't care if someone is a delusional nutbar. I really don't. However, when they become obsessed with their delusions and feel the need to "enlighten" me with their garbage, that's when I have an issue. Online or otherwise.

^That

Except NWO Florist beat me to posting a reply, so instead I'll say I agree with Snob, and leave what I originally posted intact because it's funny.

Matt, Jesus, dude. I thought we wouldn't talk about that out in the open.

Remember, CTer might read these forums now that he's wise to me posting here.

Bah...

Okay, I'll see what I can do.

Look at that hippie liberal SF avatar.